[Ar-list] Lifting

[Carter T. Butts]

iko at chem.ucla.edu wrote:
> This is going to be rambling, so I apologize ahead of time for the 
> disorganization.
> 

No problem.  I apologize after-the-fact for the slow turnaround time. 
As you are undoubtedly aware (given your email address) the UC quarter 
is now underway....

> It is difficult to assess the standard weight for the average person that 
> gives a 50% failure rate when no effort is put into it.  The problem is the 
> anytime we lift anything heavy we put in effort and thus add fatigue and 
> stress (in game terms).  [BTW what is the maximum stress and fatigue you can 
> add at any one time?]

There is no limit at present, although GMs are free to place 
restrictions if it makes sense within their own game worlds.  For those 
who wish to do so, I would suggest a "soft restriction" based on 
psycho-social attributes.  For instance, one might force the character 
to succeed at a WIL test (with a penalty based on the amount of effort 
being attempted), taking the attempted effort level as an ORN.  This 
would make attempts at almost super-human expenditures of effort very 
risky, unless the circumstances are exceedingly favorable.  (For 
instance, you might give a bonus for being enraged.)  Something like 
this would make a good MRS, if someone wanted to write it up.

> 
> Also how would one do the test?  Would it simply be a test against some 
> weight?  Or would it be a STR test where the MS will determine the weight 
> lifted?

It should be a contest of STR vs. a function of the weight being lifted, 
with a positive success margin indicating that the character is able to 
lift the object to at least a certain extent.  Exactly how well this is 
performed is determined by the magnitude of the SM...a margin of 1% 
would suggest that the character is barely able to move the object, 
while a margin of 100% implies nearly effortless action.

> 
> If we look at Olympic Weightlifting and Powerlifting there are 5 events.  
> Ask any lifter and they will tell you that there is skill in each event.  I 
> guess that means that one can get a skill (e.g. Bench Press (E, STR)).  
> However, infinite skill does not mean one can lift infinite weight.  Should 
> there be a limit on how high these skills can be?

Implicitly, there already is -- you'd have to train them, and at a 
certain point your advancement would no longer keep pace with decay. 
(Exactly what that point is depends upon your prerequisite levels -- 
which you would want to train as well -- and upon how intensively you 
train.)

> 
> I think it may be easier to work backwards from world records.  Here are 
> ball park figures I got from the net:
> Snatch: 		180 kg
> Clean and Jerk: 	210 kg
> Deadlift: 		500kg
> Bench Press: 		250kg
> Squat: 			400kg
> 
> Let’s assume that at the attempt the lifter has a 75% success rate (a rating 
> of 30), that he is putting maximum effort, both his lifting skill and 
> strength are near the human maximum (500 each).  So 500 + 500 + effort – 
> r*weight = 30; where r is difficult per mass.  Would this work?

Well, that general approach is one way to go about it.  I note that you 
are treating this contest as having two attributes (STR and the relevant 
skill) versus one...this is unusual for a skill test (where only the 
skill is generally involved) but perhaps reasonable for this case.  It 
would be essentially impossible to actually get one's STR rating to 500, 
however, by normal means.  Based on some crude simulations, I estimate 
that the expected STR for someone training (under expert supervision) 
absolutely full-time for 10 years (starting from 0) would be about 150. 
  (This takes into account simultaneous training of BOD, as well as the 
effect of attribute decay.)  You can move that number around a bit, but 
it doesn't really change all that much -- I'd say, then, that (using the 
standard training rules, at least) you're dealing with a STR in the 
50-150 range.  That's not a hard and fast limit on human achievement, by 
any means, but it's probably a fairly pragmatic upper limit on level 1 
attributes for most purposes.  (In the same scenario, BOD comes out to 
be something like 90, but this is more questionable given the way the 
simulation was performed.)

You can, of course, work out your own estimates by taking the training 
tables and running simple scenarios with your favorite programming 
language.  I'd be interested in hearing what others have come up with....

-Carter